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Zee
22 Posts |
 Posted - 05/05/2012 : 07:54:19 AM
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I'm looking for 2-3 individuals to send fiber samples to from a new male I acquired who is unregistered because he is out of 2 suris but has suri and huacaya characteristics in his fiber. He has gorgeous, soft, lusterous individual locks yet the locks have crimp. So I'm assuming he is a suri but he is very neat and very unique and before I register him I would like the opinion of a couple different fiber nuts!
He has been hand shorn but the previous owner sent along a cd of pictures so I will try and download them in the next day or 2 and post a photo of him in full fleece. I can't wait to work with his fiber and see how it spins up. I think it would be awesome to be able to produce suris with crimp!
Lindsey Moore
Little Creek Alpacas
Plymouth, IL
www.alpacanation.com/littlecreekalpacas.asp
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Edited by - Zee on 05/05/2012 07:54:56 AM |
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highpeaksalpacas
1291 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2012 : 9:37:32 PM
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I would send samples to some very prestigious fleece show judges, a well established suri breeder, a well established huacays breeder and to fiber testing labs.
Debbie Potter
High Peaks Alpacas
Wilmington, NY
www.alpacanation.com/highpeaks.asp
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pdhmaine
629 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2012 : 07:40:22 AM
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Just musing here:
I would register this male as a huacaya, because if he is out of 2 suris, the Punnett Square says he is a huacaya -- assuming the simple Punnett Square explains these outcomes and not something else.
Looking down the road: It has been my understanding that a huacaya out of 2 suris, will never produce a suri. If you register your male as a suri, then breed him to suris, he will produce huacayas -- something no suri breeder will want, so the chances of selling outside breedings will be slim. On the other hand, if you register him as a huacaya, he will add "hybrid vigor" to any huacaya breeding program because the bulk of his genes are "new" to the huacaya gene pool (there's some huacaya in there somewhere, but not a lot, likely).
I have prized my girl out of 2 suris for exactly that reason. No hairy halo on her, and her offspring, even when bred to males with stronger haloes (in the days before I knew what to look for and how to avoid those breedings!).
Phenotypically, he may look like a crimped suri, but genetically, I'm not so sure. Just my 2 cents, FWIW.
Pam
Pamela Harwood
Longwoods Alpaca Farm, LLC
135 Longwoods Road
Cumberland, ME 04021
pdh@longwoodsalpacas.com
www.longwoodsalpacas.com
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Judith
3843 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2012 : 08:29:55 AM
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Lindsey, one of the distinguishing features of suri fiber is its lack of crimp. Crimp in a suri fleece is a major fault according to the suri breed standard adopted by the Suri Network. The last thing a suri breeder wants is crimp, because the unique characteristics of suri fiber would be diminished if it were crimpy. It would lose the smoothness and long-scaled slickness that makes it a distinctive fiber. Crimp is a "wool" characteristic, whereas suri fiber is more silk-like.
Judith Korff
AlpacaNation Forum Co-Moderator
LadySong Farm Bolivian Suri Alpacas
Randolph, NY 14772
Cell: (716) 499-0383
www.alpacanation.com/ladysong.asp |
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Zee
22 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2012 : 5:40:24 PM
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Thanks for all your replies. The fiber really does not look like huacaya at all so I don't think I should register him as a huacaya. And Judith, the weird thing is that the characteristics of suri fiber aren't diminished at all in this fleece there is no "wooly" appearance what so ever. It has super soft, silky, lusterous, independent locks with crimp. I have never seen anything like it. Can I send you a sample,Judith and Pam, it's free? And thanks for the advice Debbie, I'm going to try and contact a few judges to get their opinions. I'd like to send a few samples out to other breeders first, though, to make sure that what I'm seeing really is crimp and not a figment of my imagination!
Lindsey Moore
Little Creek Alpacas
Plymouth, IL
www.alpacanation.com/littlecreekalpacas.asp
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Judith
3843 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2012 : 6:00:27 PM
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Thanks Lindsey - I'd love to see a sample. I'll return it to you. Just remember, if it has crimp, it is not "suri" fiber according to the breed standard. However, what you may be seeing is the "wave" or "pearling" that some suris have as a result of fiber that twists and then untwists. Those are perfectly acceptable characteristics. I look forward to seeing what you're talking about.
Judith Korff
AlpacaNation Forum Co-Moderator
LadySong Farm Bolivian Suri Alpacas
Randolph, NY 14772
Cell: (716) 499-0383
www.alpacanation.com/ladysong.asp |
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Nancy Rehbock
172 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2012 : 5:35:54 PM
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| How old is this guy? I had a male, I thought to be out of 2 huacaya, whose fleece was very suri-like, and everyone convinced me my suri male must somehow be the sire. Blood testing showed it not to be the case, and as he got older his fleece took on more typical huacaya characteristics. He did however have a suri grandparent. Regardless of ancestry his fleece was awesome. Nancy |
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Mary Jane
1133 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2012 : 08:00:28 AM
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This sounds like an alpaca I sheared last night. The owner had purchased it, along with 3 others, at the local livestock auction house. This little girl's fleece hung in very long individual locks with no twist. The fiber did have very bold crimp--and knock your eyes out luster. After finishing shearing it, I'm pretty certain it has at least one suri parent. The owner didn't want the fleeces and left them with me. I can't wait to get the yarn back from this little girl. It's going to be spectacular!
Mary Jane
Land of Legends Alpacas
2653 Swans Road
Newark, OH 43055
(740)345-2199
www.alpacanation.com/landoflegends.asp |
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TheAlpacaRosa
571 Posts |
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TheAlpacaRosa
571 Posts |
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Mary Jane
1133 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2012 : 3:51:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by TheAlpacaRosa
Mary Jane.....there are huacayas with no known suri in the backgroung that have this sort of lock style, They tend to be fine, dense and very bright.
Carolyn
Don Marquette
The AlpacaRosa
Ohio
www.alpacanation.com/thealpacarosa
www.TheAlpacaRosa.com
That may be what she is, although she didn't strike me as being really dense. The reason I said AFTER I was done shearing, I was convinced she had a suri parent is that she looked like a suri after shearing....if I hadn't seen her before hand, I couldn't have said she wasn't.
Mary Jane
Land of Legends Alpacas
2653 Swans Road
Newark, OH 43055
(740)345-2199
www.alpacanation.com/landoflegends.asp |
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bobvicki
2836 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2012 : 5:17:30 PM
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I have mostly Suri alpacas, but I do have a few Huacaya alpacas, one of them is a Huacaya from 2 Suri's that I traded for years ago. They are also full Chileans, full Peruvians, and full Bolivians as well as blended good old "American Made" alpacas. When mine are freshly shorn it is impossible to tell a Suri from a Huacaya from 10 feet away without knowing exactly who is who. The main identifying things will be top knot and tail, but a loose fleeced Huacaya without any known Suri in their background can look very close to being a Suri imposter.
Bob
Bob & Vicki Blodgett
Suri Land Alpaca Ranch
10371 N 2210 Road
Clinton, Oklahoma 73601
641-831-3576
alpaca@htswireless.com
www.alpacanation.com/suriland.asp |
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Zee
22 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2012 : 07:07:25 AM
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Thanks Carolyn, I'll send a sample out tomorrow. And Judith, don't worry about sending it back to me I'm just happy to have your opinion. Anyone who receives samples can just keep them, don't want you to have to hassle with postage and sending it back, I just appreciate the willingness to check it out and offering of your opinions.
Lindsey Moore
Little Creek Alpacas
Plymouth, IL
www.alpacanation.com/littlecreekalpacas.asp
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Judith
3843 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2012 : 3:24:58 PM
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Hi Lindsey -- I got your fiber sample today. It's a beautiful fleece, BTW. What I think you're talking about is the "wave" along the length of the locks. That's what I would consider pearling or wave effect. It isn't crimp. If you pull out individual fibers, you can see how straight they are. There is no regular bend to the individual hairs, so what you're seeing in the lock is simply a result of how the lock formed and then untwisted. It's like when you braid your hair when it's wet: you get a lovely wavy look to the hair when you comb it out, but it isn't a natural bend. However, you have a lovely boy from the look of the sample I received. I look forward to what the others have to say about their samples.
Judith Korff
AlpacaNation Forum Co-Moderator
LadySong Farm Bolivian Suri Alpacas
Randolph, NY 14772
Cell: (716) 499-0383
www.alpacanation.com/ladysong.asp |
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Mary Jane
1133 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2012 : 07:52:15 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bobvicki
I have mostly Suri alpacas, but I do have a few Huacaya alpacas, one of them is a Huacaya from 2 Suri's that I traded for years ago. They are also full Chileans, full Peruvians, and full Bolivians as well as blended good old "American Made" alpacas. When mine are freshly shorn it is impossible to tell a Suri from a Huacaya from 10 feet away without knowing exactly who is who. The main identifying things will be top knot and tail, but a loose fleeced Huacaya without any known Suri in their background can look very close to being a Suri imposter.
Bob
Bob & Vicki Blodgett
Suri Land Alpaca Ranch
10371 N 2210 Road
Clinton, Oklahoma 73601
641-831-3576
alpaca@htswireless.com
www.alpacanation.com/suriland.asp
In my experience as a shearer, a suri and a huacaya look much different at the skin level when freshly shorn. Even the very dense suris' fleece is distinquishable from a huacaya's.
Mary Jane
Land of Legends Alpacas
2653 Swans Road
Newark, OH 43055
(740)345-2199
www.alpacanation.com/landoflegends.asp |
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bobvicki
2836 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2012 : 11:54:21 AM
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quote:
In my experience as a shearer, a suri and a huacaya look much different at the skin level when freshly shorn. Even the very dense suris' fleece is distinquishable from a huacaya's.
Love to hear an explanation on this!
A few years ago someone was talking about ear lengths being different so I went out and measured my Suri's and Huacaya's ears, LOL, yes I really did! I found out that both had ears that were generally within a quarter inch of each other with some of each being longer and shorter.
When my shearer is done bodies look very similar and it takes up close examination to tell the difference with the quote:
main identifying things will be top knot and tail, but a loose fleeced Huacaya without any known Suri in their background can look very close to being a Suri imposter.
It would be interesting to have people only be able to see a section of the body from 5 feet away of closely shorn Suris and Huacayas to see how many could accurately ID 8-10 animals.
Bob
Bob & Vicki Blodgett
Suri Land Alpaca Ranch
10371 N 2210 Road
Clinton, Oklahoma 73601
641-831-3576
alpaca@htswireless.com
www.alpacanation.com/suriland.asp |
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Mary Jane
1133 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2012 : 9:23:51 PM
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Bob,
We may not be talking about the same thing. I'm not talking about body style, I'm talking about how the FLEECE looks at the skin level after being shorn. Huacaya fleece is typically evenly distributed over the animal, giving a velvet look when shorn. Suri fleece is more, for lack of a better word, bundled at the skin level and there tends to be a lot more open skin visible when freshly shorn. Also, many suris have an area at the arm pit where the fleece grows a different direction, like what my mother used to call a 'cow lick'. This effect is not nearly as noticable on a huacaya. These are things that you aren't going to be able to see from 5 feet away.
Mary Jane
Land of Legends Alpacas
2653 Swans Road
Newark, OH 43055
(740)345-2199
www.alpacanation.com/landoflegends.asp |
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bobvicki
2836 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2012 : 1:13:37 PM
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quote:
Bob wrote: When mine are freshly shorn it is impossible to tell a Suri from a Huacaya from 10 feet away without knowing exactly who is who. The main identifying things will be top knot and tail, but a loose fleeced Huacaya without any known Suri in their background can look very close to being a Suri imposter.
quote:
Mary Jane wrote: In my experience as a shearer, a suri and a huacaya look much different at the skin level when freshly shorn. Even the very dense suris' fleece is distinquishable from a huacaya's.
quote:
Bob wrote: When my shearer is done bodies look very similar and it takes up close examination to tell the difference with the
quote:main identifying things will be top knot and tail, but a loose fleeced Huacaya without any known Suri in their background can look very close to being a Suri imposter.
quote:
Mary Jane wrote: Also, many suris have an area at the arm pit where the fleece grows a different direction, like what my mother used to call a 'cow lick'. This effect is not nearly as noticable on a huacaya. These are things that you aren't going to be able to see from 5 feet
Not everyone is going to be able to lay an alpaca down to examine the fleece at 12 inches!
I was remarking about how it is very hard to tell a freshly shorn Suri from a Huacaya and since I have both and Huacayas from Suri's that I traded for and have all on site, it is very hard to say:
quote:
After finishing shearing it, I'm pretty certain it has at least one suri parent.
Which is along what Carolyn was also saying:
quote:
Mary Jane.....there are huacayas with no known suri in the background that have this sort of lock style, They tend to be fine, dense and very bright.
You also said many Suri's have the 'cowlick" in the armpit area, a generalization which also means many don't have that so to count on that as a way of distinguishing a Suri is not a fact to be counted on.
Bob
Bob & Vicki Blodgett
Suri Land Alpaca Ranch
10371 N 2210 Road
Clinton, Oklahoma 73601
641-831-3576
alpaca@htswireless.com
www.alpacanation.com/suriland.asp |
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Mary Jane
1133 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2012 : 12:44:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bobvicki
[
You also said many Suri's have the 'cowlick" in the armpit area, a generalization which also means many don't have that so to count on that as a way of distinguishing a Suri is not a fact to be counted on.
Bob
Bob & Vicki Blodgett
Suri Land Alpaca Ranch
10371 N 2210 Road
Clinton, Oklahoma 73601
641-831-3576
alpaca@htswireless.com
www.alpacanation.com/suriland.asp
I totally agree, Bob. Not a one of the 7 I sheared last night had it.
Mary Jane
Land of Legends Alpacas
2653 Swans Road
Newark, OH 43055
(740)345-2199
www.alpacanation.com/landoflegends.asp |
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One Of A Kind Alpaca
