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bobvicki
2836 Posts |
 Posted - 06/20/2012 : 12:06:27 AM
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Question number 1: Has anyone ever had a non pregnant female steal a newborn away from a new mother?
Question number 2: Can a non bred female develop milk to nurse a cria that is not theirs by birth?
Situation, found a new all white male cria and placenta in the barn and only a female around that we were sure was not bred. The female was looking after the cria so we thought it might be hers somehow except she has no udder at all. She has no signs of having recently given birth either but no other alpaca was around. When we took the cria to the house to weigh it she followed, humming and acting just like all the other new moms.
We bottle fed cria throughout the night and when we were going to feed at 9 AM there were 3 other females hanging around the cria, one was due and showed signs of recently giving birth so now we have the true mom.
Left mom and the other female with cria during day, after milking mom and giving it to cria who would not nurse. Later on we let them all with the other females.
About 7 PM found majority of females in the barn, mom and the "not mom" both hanging around cria and then watched cria go under "not mom" trying to nurse! Actually latching on and suckling, but she is dry right now. We tried repeatedly to get cria under mom to nurse but he would not even try.
We ultimately put mom and cria in stalls away from others hoping that if the cria gets hungry enough he will nurse. Mom is 5 years old and a first time mom and has lots of milk and very calmly stood while we milked her and also while we kept trying to put cria under her and force his mouth open around a teat.
Not mom is light-medium fawn, real mom is black and the cria is white. Not mom has had 2 white solid white males in a row but I did not breed her last year.
Hopefully this problem solves itself tonight but what else can I do except bottle feed which is ridiculous with a willing mom to nurse from.
Bob
Bob & Vicki Blodgett
Suri Land Alpaca Ranch
10371 N 2210 Road
Clinton, Oklahoma 73601
641-831-3576
alpaca@htswireless.com
www.alpacanation.com/suriland.asp
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Judith
3843 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 09:10:13 AM
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Sounds to me as though you've nailed it Bob: bottle feed/supplement the cria until it catches on to which one is mom, or milk comes in on the not-mom (which can happen). Clearly Not-Mom thinks if it's white, it's hers. It won't matter in the long run who nurses it or who raises it as long as it is raised successfully.
Judith Korff
AlpacaNation Forum Co-Moderator
LadySong Farm Bolivian Suri Alpacas
Randolph, NY 14772
Cell: (716) 499-0383
www.alpacanation.com/ladysong.asp |
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Kate
282 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 10:41:18 AM
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Hi Bob,
I did have a female steal a cria and produce a nice udder full of milk for him. She is unable to carry to term, and loves being a mother! That cria still went back to mom as well, and grew like a weed- and Camellia was very protective of him, calling him to her side, upset about being shut in the barn while he was outside.
Maybe try putting vanilla extract on all three? It's no good bonding to a stranger with no milk! How about vanilla on cria's nose and Mom's udder?!
Not fair to steal a baby if you can't feed it!
Sending good thoughts,
Kate McKelvie
Alpacas of Sunset Fields
Glen Rock, PA
Www.alpacanation.com/sunsetfields.asp
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jillmcm
3164 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 12:21:38 PM
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I'd let them both mother him - many a female has come into milk if the desire to mother is there. But of course, getting him to find his real mom's milk bar would make your life much easier, too. I have had several co-parenting arrangements, though, and generally the cria are happy to nurse off anyone that lets them...
Jill McElderry-Maxwell
Bag End Suri Alpacas of Maine - ¡BESAME!
Pittsfield, ME
(207) 660-5276 (cell)
bagendsuris@roadrunner.com
http://www.bagendsuris.com
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bobvicki
2836 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 1:27:10 PM
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I have several females that will let others nurse off them but this cria seemed to have bonded with Not Mom! After locking mom and cria in by themselves he found the milk bar so I let them out with the others. Not Mom was standing by the door waiting. I don't care who nurses him and was going to try to attach him to one of my other moms who are good milkers until we found the real mom. Hopefully both will protect and nourish him and if milk comes in on Not Mom he will be extra happy.
I had heard of animals getting milk in other species but not in alpaca's so I was pretty worried about him. I have also never had a female who was not bred, has not lost a cria try to mother, and I mean really mother another moms cria. It was like she found this abandoned cria and adopted it.
Bob
Bob
Bob & Vicki Blodgett
Suri Land Alpaca Ranch
10371 N 2210 Road
Clinton, Oklahoma 73601
641-831-3576
alpaca@htswireless.com
www.alpacanation.com/suriland.asp |
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smonat
93 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 9:07:52 PM
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We had a female cria born last summer and minutes after birth another female (who was not bred that year) began clucking to her and nudging her with her nose. The real mom didn't seem to mind. But as the day went on, the non-bred female kept circling the cria and would push her under her to nurse. The cria was already nursing on her real mom, but when forced under fake mom, she would go thru the motion of nursing. When the cria would rest and sleep, as they so often do in those first 24 hours or so, the fake mom would constantly nudge the cria awake. The next day I felt it was becoming a problem. Fake mom would just not leave this little girl alone, and I had to leave for work. I put fake mom in another area that is separated by a shelter with a gate on the door. She was with a few other friends. When I arrived home later that day I found the shelter wall (made out of Texture 1-11 and secured with screws to the framing) ripped away from the corner of the frame. This wall had an opening for a window but was about 5 feet above ground level. There were screws on the pushed out wall with gobs of fiber.
I don't know how she did it, but there she was..... Happily cushed near the cria and the real mom was cushed on the other side. They all looked so content that I decided to let nature take it's course. And the funny thing is that when I let them be, fake mom stopped being a pain in the butt and baby and real mom did just fine!!
These little "hay monkeys" never cease to amaze me!!
Sue Monat
Happy Hearts Alpacas
Brimfield, MA |
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rgoss1
663 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2012 : 11:30:08 PM
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Hey Bob - I think you hit it with your comment:
It was like she found this abandoned cria and adopted it.
Years ago I had a maiden mom who didn't seem to realize that she wasn't the mom to all the crias. Every night she would not rest until all the crias were in the barn with her. We watched her huddle with all the crias around her on July 4th when the neighbors started to do their fire crackers. The other mothers could have cared less. I just think some have a strong mothering instinct and some don't (just like humans).
thanks
Roxanne Goss
Lands End Alpacas LLC
Vermilion, Ohio
440-225-4138
e-mail:gossr@roadrunner.com
website: www.landsendalpacafarm.com |
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jodyehler
7 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2012 : 7:25:23 PM
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Bob
I was just going to post the same question. Our new mom...I think gave birth to a little boy. When we found him he was cushed and sleeping in the sunshine. A mom who is supposedly due in Sept. was clucking like crazy at him and nudging him. We were confused and wondering if maybe she was bred earlier and it was her baby. The actual new mom was nearby eating and seemed to care less her new baby was being taken from her! the new little boy went under neath the non mom and looks like he was nursing. the new mom actually still looked like her belly was really big yet but hanging really low. so we thought maybe she hadn't had her baby yet. 24 hours later the little boy is still being followed by both moms, but non mom is still trying to nurse the baby. If my friend enters the area all the moms gather around the baby and seem to all be protective of him. Then you see him sleeping in the sun and no moms or any alpacas are close by? He doesn't seem to mind. He still seems to have energy and gets up for a little romp and then cushes and takes a nap. Would he be showing signs of weakness by 24 hours if he wasn't getting milk from someone?? I am so nervous as to whether he is getting enough milk. So, today the actual mom looks a lot thinner and there is no new baby anywhere or placenta....so we gather that it indeed must be hers?? This is so confusing. He is sooo cute. He has gorgeous popcorn fiber and is meduim brown with a definate gray overcast over his head and down his neck a short distance. Can someone tell me if they have ever had a baby that didn't get enough milk and how soon we would see signs of weakness? I know the weather is going to be extremely warm near 100 degrees. so, I told my friend to put new mom and "fake" mom into a really big roomy stall during the hottest part of the day to keep them out of the direct sun and heat. I told him let them out early morning and then out late afternoon. Do the babies have a hard time maintianing their body heat? I am afraid of him overheating.
I am so afraid that the baby will look healthy and energetic and then we will find him down and weak from lack of milk? 24 hours would be too long woulnd't it to go with out milk after birh?? Are there suble signs to watch for? We don't seem to catch the baby trying to nurse and so really don't know who mom is yet!
Thanks for any suggestions.
JOdy
Jody Ehler
J&JAlpacas
www.jandjalpacas.com
Solon, IA |
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jodyehler
7 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2012 : 7:34:07 PM
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Kate
I see your comment on putting vanilla on the crias nose and moms udder? Is there something with vanilla and bonding? Or is it to give the same sent for baby and moms udder? I am already confused so why not a bit more!
Thanks
Jody
Jody Ehler
J&JAlpacas
www.jandjalpacas.com
Solon, IA |
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kilblaanfarm
130 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2012 : 8:42:36 PM
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You have to be a little careful about babies sleeping in the hot sun at first. For some reason the darker ones really seem to love crashing in direct sunlight. You find them hot as a torch, move them into the shade, only to find them out in the sun again.
It's probably too late now, but anytime you're not sure who delivered, look under some tails. The evidence is unmistakable for a few hours at least. Most girls will have some blood on their tails or legs as well.
Insufficient milk is really dangerous, especially if it's hot. Some dams will not tolerate being watched nursing. You have to peer around corners to catch them at it. If the baby is getting milk, sooner or later you'll see who's providing it. If he's not, he won't last long.
Chances are the alpacas have worked things out as usual, and the humans are overthinking the whole thing as usual.
Good luck.
Liz MacEachran |
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jodyehler
7 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2012 : 9:37:18 PM
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Thanks Liz
You are probably right! Yes, I worried when he would lay in the sun. Luckily we had a nice day when he was born...low 80's and born late around 5Pm. Today was a light breeze and low 80's again. Tomorrow will be a scorcher and he'll be in the barn out of direct sunshine for the mid day time. :)
Jody
Jody Ehler
J&JAlpacas
www.jandjalpacas.com
Solon, IA |
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bobvicki
2836 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2012 : 12:44:49 PM
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Jody,
I finally put mom & cria in over night to make sure he knew where the milk bar was. The non mom spent the night on the other side of the door.
You should weigh the baby daily for the first few days, often they might lose up to a pound the first 24 hours but then they should start gaining. I don't worry about what people say are normal weight gains because any gain is good and shows they are getting nourishment. Once you are sure it is gaining you can change weighing to every couple of days or weekly.
You have figured out the "vanilla thing" same scent on both helps with bonding.
If you see the cria acting listless or lazy you really want to get weight and temperature because they can crash quickly, sometimes just one or two extra feedings with a bottle or a tubing will be all that is needed to pick them up, sometime a vitamin shot will help. Problems are usually easy to correct if caught early.
Bob
Bob & Vicki Blodgett
Suri Land Alpaca Ranch
10371 N 2210 Road
Clinton, Oklahoma 73601
641-831-3576
alpaca@htswireless.com
www.alpacanation.com/suriland.asp |
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jodyehler
7 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2012 : 1:35:05 PM
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Bob
What is the correct way to dab a little vanilla on the nose? I was thinking do you dilute a bit so not so strong? I could put a little above the "tidinners" as my mother called them! I probably don't want him actually getting a taste of vanilla? Just the scent in the local area? I called to check this morning and my friend said that the little boy is nursing off of non mom! I said what ever gets the job done! Both moms are laying next to him. The little boy has been up and running around and looks energetic. John caught him nursing non mom. Soooo I guess I will try the vanilla and maybe he'll switch over to mom too. :) Gads, I haven't witnessed this before! Maybe it's a good thing to have an extra mom, but just as long as she doens't try and steal all three babies due right now! :) I am going over tonight and see what I can do to get baby under his mom too. Thank you all for your help! They are so tiny and fragile looking and I know they can go so quick.
Jody
Jody Ehler
J&JAlpacas
www.jandjalpacas.com
Solon, IA |
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bobvicki
2836 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2012 : 5:07:07 PM
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Jody,
Here is my concern with your situation, when is non mom due. If it is soon the baby may be taking all the colostrum from the non mom if she was going to have her baby soon. If he brings her into milk the first milk will be colostrum, and I am not sure she would produce more when her own baby is born if she is nursing a cria?
I never did vanilla but I would just put some on a fingertip and run it on the adults nose and the babies tail base. I have heard lavender works also.
You might just have to force the baby to nurse from mom by keeping them separate for a few days.
Bob
Bob & Vicki Blodgett
Suri Land Alpaca Ranch
10371 N 2210 Road
Clinton, Oklahoma 73601
641-831-3576
alpaca@htswireless.com
www.alpacanation.com/suriland.asp |
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jodyehler
7 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2012 : 5:29:36 PM
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Bob
Non mom is suppose to be due Sept. 9th. You are right. I probably should check them out and see if I can get baby to nurse from real mom and slowly wean non mom away from nursing him. What about rubbing a cloth on mom to get her scent and then rubbing the baby? I may try the scent on the babies behind like you mentioned. It couldn't hurt...I hope. :) Let real mom smell the scent on herself and then her baby. I may try rubbing her scent on him first and then see what she does. If no interest then move on to plan B! I really want this new mom to nurse and become a good mom in the future too.
Thanks for your help!
Jody
Jody Ehler
J&JAlpacas
www.jandjalpacas.com
Solon, IA |
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jillmcm
3164 Posts |
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jodyehler
7 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2012 : 8:42:59 PM
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Hi Jill
Well, that is probably the best. Unfortunately I have my alpacas about 20 miles away on a friends farm and I work full time. The young couple are new to alpacas. They are nervous the way it is with out telling them to go out there and milk that short little thing! :) I actually gives me a very funny image! I am going out to the farm and see if we can get baby to nurse from his mom by putting the two together for a little one on one time. Yes, non mom can look over the rail and see them so she won't get upset...I hope. :)
Thanks
Jody
Jody Ehler
J&JAlpacas
www.jandjalpacas.com
Solon, IA |
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jodyehler
7 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2012 : 9:28:11 PM
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I am doing the "baby is nursing from his real mom" DANCE!!! I called the farm and he said the whole herd was a bit lethargic from heat today, but the baby was latched onto his mom and nursing. John has a big cement area in front of the barn. He turned on the sprinkler to keep it wet and cool. The little boy was romping around the sprinkler and playing. I can sleep a good sleep tonight!! The other mother is cooling down now too towards the little boy. Maybe when real mom didn't show interest in her baby right away it makes an experienced mom nervous and protective?? We have two more due soon and we will see if non mom tries it again with them. Thank you everyone! Yes, they have a lot of shade to lay in and the barn is open on each end to let a breeze through. Still they will lay in the sun??? We at least had some strong breezes on this hot day. Well, everyone try and stay cool on these hot days ahead. I will be reading all the topics on this forum. This is the best area for learning about these critters. I really apreciate how fast everyone responded too. :)
Jody
Jody Ehler
J&JAlpacas
www.jandjalpacas.com
Solon, IA |
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Surrogate mother
