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jillmcm
1546 Posts |
 Posted - 10/28/2009 : 11:08:46 AM
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Yet another gray question - sort of. I'm wondering what we know about animals that develop fleeces with lots of white hairs in them. I'm not talking about anything due to old age, but rather, animals that in their second and third years, begin to show copious amounts of white in their fleeces - but not enough to qualify as gray, although they might fit into indefinite. I'm particularly interested in animals that do not come from obvious gray heritage.
Could these be poorly expressed grays?
What really is the distinction between indefinites and grays, other than apparently arbitrary?
Do these animals tend to pass this trait on? Is it dominant?
I have read Neil's intro on the gray alpaca site, but I'd still like to hear from other folks. I have a vested interest in this question, as I have a male who I think has pretty much the complete package, fiber-wise - but is showing more and more white fibers in his blanket. I therefore hesitate to use him - but should I?
Jill McElderry-Maxwell
Bag End Suri Alpacas of Maine - ¡BESAME!
Benton, ME
(207) 453-0109
bagendsuris@roadrunner.com
http://www.alpacanation.com/bagendsuri.asp
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TheAlpacaRosa
222 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 4:47:49 PM
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Jill,
You have probably read the "Making of Champions" wrote by Julie Skinner. She interviewed some "large quantity alpaca fleece buyers" and their perspective was that those white fibers(or contamination) are the most important criteria in buying fleece. They dont want it.
My thought is, if the commercial market gravitated to that opinion in Peru, then It will likely do the same here over time.
We have adopted a more stringent attitude about not breeding in contamination on our farm. I believe our market will continue to rachet down on all traits our industry deems are imperfections. The standards will continue to climb.
Just my thoughts.
Don
Don Marquette
The AlpacaRosa
Ohio
www.alpacanation.com/thealpacarosa
www.TheAlpacaRosa.com
http://alpacaguy.com |
Edited by - TheAlpacaRosa on 10/28/2009 4:49:31 PM |
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jillmcm
1546 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 5:35:41 PM
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Don, I understand that - that's why I'm trying to figure out if this is a poorly expressed graying, and what the patterns of heredity are. Neither of his parents shows this trait, but mom is a white - so could potentially hide gray. This spring he was "contaminated," having a very low percentage of white fibers, but looking at him this afternoon, the percentage of white fibers has climbed, almost certainly pushing him into the indefinites - they're very evenly distributed throughout his fleece. They're not guard hairs either, but very fine fibers.
Jill McElderry-Maxwell
Bag End Suri Alpacas of Maine - ¡BESAME!
Benton, ME
(207) 453-0109
bagendsuris@roadrunner.com
http://www.alpacanation.com/bagendsuri.asp
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TheAlpacaRosa
222 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 9:58:57 PM
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Well, if you are lookin for opinions, I consider both instances you give "Spring contaminated" and "this afternoon indefinite", both contamination. The First example I see as simply less contaminated than the second. I would not consider them greys. I think the show color judges may put them in one of a few different classes. I'm Not sure the showring will ever have the grey matter to figure out the grey dilemma to satisfy EVERYONE (that is, all the breeders of multis, tuxedos, modern greys, indefinates,"arbitrary", and future labeled grey classes. :)
That is one of the reasons we got away from breeding for greys.
When I read how strongly influenced the professional alpaca fiber buyers were on the contamination issue, it influenced us as well.
That said, I lovvvvvvvvve lookin at a macho Grey!
Will be curious what others say.
Don
Don Marquette
The AlpacaRosa
Ohio
www.alpacanation.com/thealpacarosa
www.TheAlpacaRosa.com
http://alpacaguy.com |
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jillmcm
1546 Posts |
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vintagealpacas
389 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 07:43:45 AM
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Hi Don, Jill, others...
I breed for grey primarily, with of course the default being black. But more importantly about this topic is that I sell every last speck of my alpaca fleece on the open market. Last year I brought in over $5000 which might sound like pocket change to some but I find it certainly helps pay the bills around here. My fleece sales have been very strong for the past 3 years... and I can tell you from experience that the fleece that gets the most attention and the best pricing are the greys and anything "contaminated" or multicolored. The greys typically demand at least $3.00 per ounce... while other colors sell day and night for $1.00 - $1.50 per ounce. The only exception I have to report is a record price paid for a true black fleece last month - $6.08 per ounce! Yes, I know the large fleece buyers don't want contamination in the fleece they buy, but realistically, in our lifetime, there is not going to be this kind of buyer readily available to most alpaca breeders. This is why I find it very rewarding to satisfy the cottage industry who tends to like unusual and varied colors and patterns. The cottage industry will never die out as there are so many handcrafters out there. I even sell ALL leg, neck and belly fiber and make a good buck at that too...also, I take fleece on consignment after all of mine is sold and I work that market usually after February until May. So, fleeces with white fibers in them (or dark fibers too but not as common)don't scare me...they actually excite me as their unique qualities keep them in high demand for fleece buyers.
Kim
Kimberly Rassi
Vintage Alpacas
alpacanation.asp/vintage |
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julieandken
508 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 09:09:58 AM
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Hi Jill,
It sounds like nobody has yet offered an opinion to your question and I don't know if Andy or Neil have formed one based on their observations, so I'd like to offer a hypothetical.
I have a working hypothesis;
I believe that one of the main difficulties in breeding for grey is the extremely variable penetrance of the roaning gene. I suspect that poorly "expressed greys" will always be a waste basket.
One of the tools that I believe might be helpful in identifying which parents might be more "penetrant" for the roaning gene is the skin biopsy. If there is a reasonable distribution of light and dark fibres in both the primaries and secondaries, I suspect that that animal is more likely to transmit a more "expressed" grey.
That said, at least in my view, a "poorly expessed grey" is less likely to make a definite roan offspring than one that has a more definite expression of grey. Since I skin test all my breeding males, I would look for an even distribution of light and dark in both primaries and secondaries.
I have some very, at best, incomplete data to support that opinion. If Ian is reading this post, and unless he has changed his mind, or I misunderstood him, he may agree.
I don't believe that "premature greyers" are "true roans" and that they carry the roan gene. It would not surprise me if most of the light fibres in darks that grey as they age are primaries, and you might be able to tell by pulling a fleece sample and eye-balling it. I suspect that, much like humans who go grey prematurely, that they have fibres that are genotypically dark, that exhuast melanocytes i.e. the interspersed cells in the root of the follicle that produce melanin. They likely do this earler than the rest of the body as it ages, as is the case in humans.
Having said all that, it makes perfect sense to breed tham into a grey program for the best fit. It really doesn't matter to me. If I can get the Dp/Ds* close to 1.0 they are producing what I am breeding for and the next generation is roan, is roan, is roan..."mission accomplished". All I have to do is breed them to a grey. Even if the breeding outcome is solid. I not sure that premature "greying" is dominant, so I might still breed the offspring back for solid color. Much as I like to breed for color, and grey particularly, my fibre objectives trump my color objectives.
*Dp/Ds is the ratio of the fiber diameter (micron) of the primary over secondary fibres on skin biopsy. If the micron difference is less than 10 it is good. The closer it is to 1.0 the closer you are to eliminating guard hair. We all have a feel for the "hand" of a blanket by touch, but of the measurable paramaters it is nice to be able to incorporate a low SD and Dp/Ds into an animal, a low CV into a herd and wouldn't it be nice to have a cheap test that measures a low scale height by electron microscopy?
Regards,
Ken
Julie and Ken Rosenfeld, MD
Renaissance Ridge Alpacas
Mount Aukum, CA
www.renaissanceridgealpacas.com
530-620-7934
http://www.alpacanation.com/farmsandbreeders/03_viewfarm.asp?name=12721 |
Edited by - julieandken on 10/29/2009 09:20:16 AM |
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jillmcm
1546 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 10:11:11 AM
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Thanks, Ken. This guys white fibers are as fine or finer than his black fibers, so they don't appear to be primaries (there are some white primaries in there as well, though). They are (to the naked eye) quite evenly distributed in the fiber as well. I just wish we knew if this is poorly expressed roaning or something else entirely.
I will be very interested to see what he looks like at this spring's shearing, since he has only been sheared once.
Jill McElderry-Maxwell
Bag End Suri Alpacas of Maine - ¡BESAME!
Benton, ME
(207) 453-0109
bagendsuris@roadrunner.com
http://www.alpacanation.com/bagendsuri.asp
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Ian Watt
633 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2009 : 4:57:59 PM
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I agree withken's very good summary and I would add the following:
breeding for color outcomes will always be a crapshoot at some level and it depends entirely on what the individual breeder is prepared to accept as to how successful that mating decision has been I suspect!
as animals age so 'greying' occurs just as it does in humans - some grey earlier than other s and many grey as they enter middleage - in alpacas animals that grey early in life will contribute to color contamination (though white in a grey fleece would not be anywhere as noticable as if it were in a solid color) if it is anywhere near a dominant gene (which I suspect it is not).
best fleece production years occur from 2 through 5 so greying after this time will be of lesser impact on fiber production than if it happens within that time-frame. Personally I don't think geying after 5 years of age is of any consequence but I would be very, very careful of using a male that exhibits this lack of predictability in his fleece if he greys within 5 years of age - just a personal point of view folks!
Ken's comments on Ds/Dp are very valid in my view (of course I would say that as they are part of the skin biopsy test data!) with my only comment being it does not matter which fiber type exhibits the greying if density is high and the differences between primary and secondary are less than 10 micron, remembering that there is an overlap of fiber diameters on the fine end of the primaries and the stronger end of the secondaries which makes microscope identification of the types of fibers by micron very unpredictable.
Regards
Ian Watt
Alpaca Consulting USA
www.alpacaconsultingUSA.com
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rgoss1
193 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2009 : 10:14:57 PM
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I'm still very confused about the contaminated fleece. As I understand it, a rose gray has to be a brown with white/gray fibers. Is that correct? If not, can someone explain it to me in "laymans terms"
thanks
Roxanne Goss
Lands End Alpacas LLC
Vermilion, Ohio
gossr@roadrunner.com 440-225-4138 |
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danimac
514 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2009 : 10:35:53 PM
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Roxanne -- a "contaminated fleece" is one that's got a single dominant color (for ex, black), with a light to heavy scattering of white fibers throughout the blanket. In one of my dams, her primaries are white, though the rest of her fleece is black.
Rose greys have an almost equal mix of white, brown/red, and black fibers.
Does that help?
Cheers,
Dani
Dani McKenzie
Longbottom Meadows
Roy, WA
360-400-0348
http://www.longbottommeadows.com |
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APacaFunFarm
658 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2009 : 12:09:12 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by danimac
Rose greys have an almost equal mix of white, brown/red, and black fibers.
Does that help?
Cheers,
Dani
Oh if it were only that simple Dani.
Black is not necessary for either a genetic or show rules definition of rose gray. Light and dark fibers do not have to be, "an almost even mix". They just have to be present in significant numbers, more or less evenly distributed throughout the blanket (in other words, not just be in certain spots).
Show rules refer only to the phenotype of an animal. Genetics (due to variability in expression and/or penetrance) may or may not have much to do with phenotype. In particular, grays, indefinites, and "contaminated fleece" overlap considerably by show rules definitions.
Jill's original question is essentially unanswerable as a general statement. You have to deal with her question on an animal by animal basis, armed with pedigrees and progeny, to understand the genetics of any single alpaca standing before you.
Continued best regards,
Neil
A Paca Fun Farm
Dickerson,MD
www.apacafunfarm.com |
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danimac
514 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2009 : 10:12:25 PM
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quote:
Oh if it were only that simple Dani.
Black is not necessary for either a genetic or show rules definition of rose gray. Light and dark fibers do not have to be, "an almost even mix". They just have to be present in significant numbers, more or less evenly distributed throughout the blanket (in other words, not just be in certain spots).
Neil -- fair enough. I was trying to respond to Roxanne's question about when is it 'contaminated fleece' and when is it 'rose grey', and was having trouble articulating that (pardon the pun) grey zone between the two. I should have said, "as an example".
Cheers,
Dani
Dani McKenzie
Longbottom Meadows
Roy, WA
360-400-0348
http://www.longbottommeadows.com |
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rgoss1
193 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 12:06:12 AM
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Thanks that does help.
You can now clearly see that his white fibers are spread throughout his blanket. His dam is a beautiful rose-gray but he initially looked like a med brown so I registered him as such. I'll wait till shearing time and see how it looks at that time. On the other hand, perhaps I'll take him to the Spring shows and let the color checkers/judges help me figure it out.
Thanks!!
Roxanne Goss
Lands End Alpacas LLC
Vermilion, Ohio
gossr@roadrunner.com 440-225-4138 |
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"Contaminated fleece"
